Talk:Battle of the Teutoburg Forest

Rome Total War

Added a reference to Rome Total war in the fiction section. It is re-playble by Roman Forces but soldier numbers are less than real numbers.

Removal

Looked up the "scholar" an amateur archaeologist with a metal detector -- but apparently the book resulting from his work is a good read -- and removed the ridiculous sentence about showing the Romans they weren't invincible. The statue was just built by a guy who thought it would be a great memorial -- out of pro German, not anti Roman Empire, fervor.JHK

Robert Graves

Removed:

According to Robert Graves in I, Claudius, the centurion Cassius Chaerea (future Praetorian Guard prefect and assassin of Caligula) led less than one hundred Roman survivors from the forest back to Roman lines.

because Robert Graves, as far as I can tell, simply invented the story. This could be put back into a section on fictional portrayals of the battle, but blending admittedly-fictional and ostensibly-factual material like this just does the reader a disservice. —Charles P. ^(Mirv) 02:32, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Film projects

I added the film project "Legiones Redde" in external links which depicts the battle. I'm a fan of this production but I don't know personally the people who made it. It contains a few historical errors but not too many (i.e. the design of the Roman standard) and the confrontation between Arminius and Varus before he commits suicide was clearly done for drama, but other than that the events and scenes remain pretty close to history.

If anyone knows of any other films projects with depictions of the battle, please post them in external links.

Major Revision of Article

Dear Community,

I'm new at this, so I hope I haven't stepped on anyone's toes. If so, I apologize and would like to participate in the further development of this and related pages.

I'm a free-lance journalist in Berlin, specializing on this issue in light of the upcoming 2000th anniversary. I therefore have access to information faster and more fully than people not living in Germany, or speaking German, which is what most information is available in. I have therefore taken the liberty of a major update on this page, with the following major thrusts:

- The article rightly identifies Kalkriese as the site of the battle - or more exactly, of part of the battle, since it is little disputed (nothing is undisputed!) that the battle took place over a period of several days, and in a wide area. That is why I think that, even in the box, the location should be "Osnabrück County", since the fighting was spread across at least three townships in that county. More importantly, the evidence is so overwhelming that one should come right out and say that the battle took place there, and start trying to reconstruct the progress of the battle from the Roman sources in light of having found that location. I have provided an attempt to do so, and would welcome a discussion on that.

- The article as it was stuck to one of the points that is most widely rejected of all by modern historians: That the battle in and of itself ended Roman ambitions east of the Rhine. It is now generally accepted, both in light of increasing archeological evidence and of a reassessment of the sources, that this was not true, and that the undertakings of Tiberius and Germanicus over the course of the next 7 years constituted a full-fledged attempt at re-conquest. This is really the only major point where I have replaced an existing statement with a new interpretation, and I have therefore gone to a little effort to justify it in the text itself. The importance of this point is central to a reassessment of the battle in Germany, i.e., to a reacceptance, after WWII, of addrssing the issue at all, and in a "post-nationalist" manner. It is important to point out that ancient Germany was not liberated by some godlike hero who smote the evil foe with a single blow, without loss. The fact is, of course, that that description does indeed come close to the truth when describing the battle itself - but the liberation was not finally accomplished until 7 years later, after a long and bloody war, with severe losses on both sides, and several battles in which the Romans were victorious, or wich were at least inconclusive. I have therefore gone into a little more detail on the battles thereafter, although I think it is inappropriate in this article to go too far in that respect, since this is an article about this battle and not the war as a whole.

- I have tried to add those details which are directly pertenent to the battle and its immediate prelude and aftermath, such as the warning given by Segestes, or the dispatch of Varus' head to Marbod.

- i have tried to "reedit" from the point of view of grouping statements together which address the same issue; in some cases, there seemed to have been some redoubling. I hope I have not deleted anything vital in the process. I have also corrected a number of minor errors.

- I have tried to give other theories their due not by holding back on the presentation of the Kalkriese-based version (i.e., banning it to a postscript, as was the case previoiusly), but rather by adding a new section on alternative theories. I might add that such a section also exists on the German page. The most important alternative theory that should be considered is, of course, the "eastern approach" theory, favored by the Kalkriese museum folks, as opposed to the "southern approach" I favor. I feel however that it is legitimate to advance a coherent "southern-approach" theory in the article, because there is no "eastern-approach" theory of comparable coherence. I.e., if you ask them to specify what they think happened, they say, "well, we just don't know." I think that the finds of this past year have truly laid to rest any theories about the battle having proceeded beyond Kalkriese (i.e., Lendering), and that the findings of the next year will mean a complete revision of the approach scenario.

- I have tried to give a more comprehensive perspective on the "reception" of the battle in the German "nation-building" process.

I think that the debate here should concentrate on these issues - how to evaluate the new finds in the light of the sources - and stay away from such "political-correctness" debates as whether to say "German" or "Germanic".

One point I did not correct, because it was linked, was the statement that the wall at Kalkriese was made of peat. It was not, it was made of grass sods. Peat would have had to have been cut from the Great Bog, many 100 m to the north, while grass sods were available from the sandy areas immediately in front of where the wall was being built, and it is certain that this material was used.

I believe it would be sufficient to conduct a discussion of this issue on this page, and to try to adjust other, related pages to it, without having to debate there as well. Is that acceptable?

Finally: I will be opening a HP on this issue shortly, the first comprehensive page that will be in both German and English (of course, the Kalkriese Museum page is 3-lingual (with Dutch), and the movie folks in Hamburg seem to have an English version, which is currently not accessible).

With best regards

Phil Hill, Berlin —Preceding unsigned comment added by Philhillberlin (talk • contribs)

Pictures of Teutoburg forest

Why are there so many photographs of Teutoburg forest when the article states that the battle most likely took place at Kalkriese? 2A02:1210:2642:4A00:3080:C6F8:DC55:5BC9 (talk) 08:48, 29 October 2025 (UTC)